Lord Duckhunter

The difference other than the obvious bits you already pointed out which by the way is pretty much everything in the way the shock is built other than the fact they both flow oil... is that the Ohlins is engineered from the word go as a performance piece of equipment designed with fine tuning in mind to add compliancy & traction to the rear wheel rather than a shock built to a price point that will allow the bike to be ridden around with two people on it without getting someone killed...

All the OEM suspension pieces are built to a price point & this 919 is Honda's bargain bin special for sure. The only reason they gave it more adjustable suspension in 2004 is because all the journalists were beating it up in the magazines and claiming the FZ1 was better because it was "adjustable". The truth is the adjustable suspension Honda put on the 2004+ model is really no better in terms of damping or spring rates than the previous models were, but all the sudden the journalists rejoiced at how good the 919 was because it had "adjustable" suspension. The 2004+ models wallow around just like the previous 2 years did and you still cannot adjust the preload into a proper range with a normal sized rider, but hey it is adjustable

voodooridr

Great, I thought my '04 was special, well at least it has a clock.

hornet919

the clock is so you can see how much faster you are once you put on the ohlins duh

voodooridr

Putting on an Ohlins would make mine slower cause I wouldn't be able to afford gas after buying one.
Pushing is much slower.

Bryce919er

The 04+ shock is worth every penny to replace a 02/03 unit. The stock 02 shock would launch me completely off the seat at every bridge, expansion joint, & sharp bump--& I weigh 200 lbs. The 04 shock does none of this due to the rebound I increased & perhaps to the lower spring rate that I have heard it has. I no longer wince at the sight of an expansion joint. To say this is not an improvement would be ludicrous.

mcromo44

Sike, my situation is just like yours as noted above, including RaceCity in Calgary is notorious for bumps and patches.

HEY Sike, a one sentance message from me, even if it is a bit of a run on sentance !

mcromo44

My experience matches LDH's above comments.

mcromo44

In ball park terms, because of the leverage ratios in a link setup, spring rates will be around 1/2 what they will be for a non link rear like the 919 has. Depending on the brand, the metric units for spring rates can vary. I don't have the Nm conversion handy, but if you are looking at kg/mm ratings and want to convert to # / in, just multiply the kg/mm value x 56. I tend to think in terms of #/in for rear and kg/mm for the fronts. I started with 1000 #/inch for rear, and went up to 1100 and am leaving it like that. In that zone of spring rating, the Hypercoil springs come on 50 #/in increments. And on a 919, a smaller increment would be past splitting hairs. (My front is a mix of 0.9 and 0.95 for an overall 0.925 , kg/mm that is, and I way 165 # before riding gear)

davehirt

a bit long but an interesting read on the diff between a cheap shock and a good shock

A bit of background...

In brief, an emulsion shock is where gas and oil are mixed together and so form an emulsion. Usually seen on the front of BMW’s and in instances where people want a cost-effective rebuildable shock to use for touring and the like. Personally I don’t much care for any of them. They do not take to demanding jobs well, as heat is the enemy and tends to separate the emulsion back into gas and oil. Gas not working like oil when worked by a piston and its valving, therefore inconsistency can ensue; non-damped movement being potentially catastrophic.

Of course nearly every machine you will come across these days has some form of de Carbon shock on it. This being the idea of the oil within the damper being separated from its gas. The oil in being left untainted by the gas, in a pure form, gets on with its job admirably (with a good design) for the most part with consistent pressure upon it coming from its reservoir of gas. Sweet right?

Well, it would be if this was the way it all worked. Sadly the budgeting departments, or the accountants within bike producing companies, or possibly within the OEM shock manufacturers have other thoughts. Firstly, what do I mean by OEM shock manufacturers? Well, simply those that supply the units for your motorcycle. How does that impact upon everything? Well, the method they employ to keep the gas separated from the oil is quite unsound! Oh, I can just hear people beginning to go “la lala la la” inside their heads – sorry, but it needs saying. So we’ll start:

The gas is contained inside of a rubber sock in those shocks with external reservoirs (not Öhlin’s and others of that ilk – nor is this the case with internal reservoir shocks). Most of the time the transfer of this gas has already commenced its task of polluting your shock’s oil even before your bike arrives in the great iron container at its market destination. Of course rubber being its wonderful permeable self is a little better when newer, but a whole lot worse when older. In brief the gas migrates, it leaks through this rubber sock or bladder into the oil – hence the beginning wee note on what is an emulsion shock!

To me it is a given that this is what happens; but the World never exists with just one person’s viewpoint. There will be people out there that will either never tell you any of this (!), or simply deny that the phenomena even exists (!!); you may even hear some fancy explanation as to why they’re right (!!!). Except for the fact that they are not – ha ha. But seriously, sensors internal to the RCU (rear cushion unit or ‘shock’) have proven this; also by measuring exactly how much gas one puts into it and then finding it on the other side of the membrane a few days later; or just playing with lo-fi statistics like how many shocks and of varying ages and usage (indeed, some never used) one very carefully opens under a watchful eye, have all gone to proving this to me.

Air does not stay in your tyres!

The shocks they provide are enough to get them out of the showroom; they will even work to a fairly good degree. It isn’t like they are going to spontaneously ignite or explode. Indeed the inevitable and ensuing squishiness actually goes a long way to making it more comfortable on the open road, as it will not have a lot of response to matters one way or the other; some call this comfort having no initial damping control...

I suppose we need to look at whether or not this matters to you personally. As things are I cannot count the amount of times someone will state an argument to counter some proffered logic...


You might say:

1. XYZ can do 1:28 on a std bike
2. My mate can get his knee down on a stock one; so can I.
3. Never had a problem with mine, especially after I had a chocolate valve stuck in it.

(or some of my favourites)

4. I am not good enough to tell the difference.
5. I am not fast enough for it to matter.



1. Years ago when I was fast enough to care about trying to go fast, I am fairly sure my RD350LC race bike didn’t have anything much in it at all; but did I care? No, not much; but then knowledge back then was so much lower than now too, not many people knew, not many cared and there were no options that I knew of or was looking for. Times have changed. XYZ will be fast on anything - they want to go fast and will find the skills to do so; but they will be faster again with even better tools in the box. Do we see many people out there using longer-wearing tyres than they could be anymore? No problems with complaining about them though...

2. An OEM milkshake shock will still perform to the point of allowing you to look like the dude in the promo video on Youtube, will still allow you to look like the guy in the magazine photo-spread. This does not suggest that you were not closer to the edge of a safety barrier, it just means that you didn’t cross the border and get stung that time.

3. Changing to whatever valve will not really alter a problem that has nothing to do with that part of the system will it? Of course it will get a little better, generally updating any road system to have more response to movement will do that. (will come back on this later)

4. If you are not good enough to tell much difference then you are likely delusional. I cannot recall a scenario where letting someone’s tyre down has not seen them notice a change. Never seen a learner not improve with more control available to them. But most importantly, if you are as you say you are then you are actually in a higher risk group of not having the relevant skills to cope with certain scenarios should they present themselves – don’t those scenarios always present themselves at the best moments? I often wonder if you haven’t volunteered & entered into some Darwinian styled experiment? Perhaps a belief in some outmoded quasi-motorcycle belief systemic hierarchy (legends & myths?); some liminalism or rite of passage maybe; by offering yourself up for the ‘cull’ should you fail to extract from this World & learn the necessary control skill-sets fast enough, so as to prevent getting injured... (laudable?) No, not giving yourself the best chance at things will not earn anyone any credit points...

5. As to the last theory of not being fast enough; well, I suppose that is OK as long as you ride about all sedately - perhaps meant for the likes of people that ask none too much of anything.


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _



Anyway, we have departed the topic area a little too long; whatever the risks are and whatever your luck is like, or however much you like to sail close to the wind, a milkshake is still a lot worse than a non-milkshake, full-stop.

Sadly the Superstock 600 rules are still in favour of altering the stock OEM shock for racing here in Australia, whereas other countries have moved on and ditched them; but as detailed in the above parentheses, we’re coming to all that now:

Aftermarket shock pistons, as in those that go into your OEM 40mm or 46mm unit to replace the stock one, hmm... Now, prior to making recent decisions at Z-HQ I made my own – quite good I might add too, you know won races with them etc... – and now they all sit inside a plastic container gathering dust. There is just no point in recommending people use something I do not believe in myself. Not that there is anything wrong with the piston itself, not at all meant that way. It is all relating to the shock and its inherent design flaw. You see there is just no point in putting a gold ring onto a soon-to-be cadaver is there? But what about the lost revenue from not working with them?

Ah well, the revenue, aka the profit! The OEM shock update is such a long-standing thing that it is extremely difficult to undo the practice, the mindset toward it. Unless people start to know more about it all, right? (hopefully!)

You could spend a lot of money updating one of these things. Aftermarket piston; new bladder; a Schrader valve kit for those without any refilling means; a needle cap for those that have a Schrader already (!); a threaded collar for more precise preloading adjustment. Spring platform spacer(s) to fit the aftermarket spring; or internal spacing; or lengthening; internal additions to separating fluid movement (not really a new thing at all by the way!). Seals and o-rings... As you can see the possibility for making lots of little profits attached to the main labour charge is quite wide and open.

There is about 6-700 dollars right there and it will still fail! Incredible. Those SSt600 rules should be altered I believe, as I know I would sooner have an aftermarket reliable and tuneable shock in the rear than have some noisy exhaust end-can which does little for drive and safety. Of course the rules are the rules and we cannot alter them. But we do not have to play by the rules if we aren’t taking part in that series now do we?

Personally, I still build the odd shock for this class of racing; and will also do so for road people too (if I must), just that they must comprehend what it all means first. Of course for the large part by the time a very brief explanation has been offered (time is precious) they just pop up the road to where they will be told something different – something that perhaps suits their “ear-buds” better! After all bike people never have any trouble talking themselves into going with the cheaper of two options. Even when it is a false economy... However the fact remains for me to knowingly continue to rebuild and tune them internally like I did 6 years ago for people, would now be amoral due to mine knowing about it. So I do not, even if the profit from selling fault-free shocks (proper ones)is but a meagre half – yes I appreciate that this is a crazy business acumen, but then I have always had a problem with pretentiousness, fallacy or just plain deception!




As an addendum to the above, you also need to be aware that sometimes a motorcycle manufacturer can snooker themselves into a corner with some chassis' design, as once they add in a shock from their supplier's range, which by its design (nature) is entirely unsuited to the motion ratio of the particular design mix within the motorbike, then however you go about attempting to modify this POS OEM RCU, the sow’s ear cannot magically become a silk purse!!! What is to say that swapping to the right* type of aftermarket shock is the only answer. Of course everyone thinks the bike makers are wonderful and spend countless hours designing stuff and making sure it all works superbly - or this design flaw they'll fix next year(!) - but the truth isn't like that is it? Some brands never really win in WSS!!! I mention this class due to the closer similitude with what we can ride, Superbike's are so far removed as to be incomparable to proddy bikes, because as soon as you can change linkages and/or swinging arm (frame?) and triple clamps, wheels etc, the bike is becoming 'fixed' and moving away from all the little design areas especially aimed at & suited to the road when it was designed for that duty...

* Not just any aftermarket shock will necessarily mean the solution your needs.

Perhaps it has stemmed from an erosion of trusting in your local professional, or perhaps it has come about from deciding on your own purchases via online sales in order to ‘save’ money, I am not sure on why (but recall the 1st paragraph here?). Just that I intend to do something about it as and when I can by way of small expositions and try and get through gradually...

Zenodamper - Suspension Engineering

Lord Duckhunter

This thread may just end up being sticky... It has the makings of the best suspension thread ever!

catonsvilleguy

davehirt, you have quite a talent! Bravo! A masterpiece!

drivit

it's cold but i just went out and gave my $300
progresive suspension shock a BIG hug.
Thanks you guys.

Sniper

Whew, tha more I learn, the less I know.

Can someone say for sure the `04+ 919 shock is a "Milkshaker"? Is it worth putting a spring on, and a valve into?

Is tha shock on my 07 600RR a "Milkshaker"? I'm pretty happy with that one.

mntnceguy

OK, pardon me while I get on my soapbox.....

Common guys, lets get a grip on reality here...not many of us are racers, just riders enjoying getting our hearts pumping and being out on the road.

High end equipment can be argued for on just about any type of mechanical anything, from the shocks on your bike to your truck or car, to the turbo on your Subaru or the stereo system in your mini-van.

Sure the performance of these high end items is superior, sure arguments can be made pointing out the weaknesses of the parts we all use day to day, and maybe even a little more enjoyment could be had by spending ridiculous amounts of money on the very best parts you can get...but if thats the case we are all gonna be permanently poor, and never enjoying anything because we must be missing some small iota of performance (that we are probably not skilled enough to fully appreciate anyway)

I say this with all due respect...Give it up LDH and others with your hard sell techniques. You are the man, and we all envy the fact that you are an all knowing racing god, who probably does need the very best parts available, and knows how to use them. Thanks for making those parts available and doing what you do here on this site, but geesh, give it a rest already. Anybody who will get the same level of use out of those type of parts has probably already bought them, or at least doesn't need to be constantly told how much he needs them...

We are Honda 919 riders...who love tinkering and customizing our bikes to suit us, but usually on a budget, with a clear idea of what's actually needed, and what's wanted. It's the prodding of high pressure sales people that make us lose sight of the proper balance between needs and wants.

If having a rebuilt F3 shock on my bike makes me a huge piece of moronic white trash....so be it. If my enjoyment of the ride with my substandard parts and feelings of self-satisfaction knowing I did it myself makes me an ignorant fool, well you go right on ahead judging me from your throne.

I can say from experience boys that my F3 shock and rebuilt forks made a world of difference, and the $300-400 that you'll spend doing it IS well worth it. But $2000 or more to re-work the suspension on a $4000 bike....I'm betting there are other bikes where that money would make a bigger difference, and that dropping that kinda coin on a bike with the lighter frame and swing arm of the 919 may be better spent elsewhere.

Wants vs. Needs guys, regardless of the sales pressure....

Ok, I'm off the soapbox now, and Thanks for humoring me...

Lord Duckhunter

First off I am the one guy that does not advocate upgrading the suspension on the 919. I tell EVERYONE that on this particular bike to slap a set of cans on it, some brake lines & a Powercommander & go have fun. If you are really quick throw some nice rear sets on it too because the OEM ones will start grinding down to nothing at anything near 7/10 pace





I feel suspension is a point of diminishing returns on the 919. The chassis & swingarm preclude any real benefit out of it other than a smoother overall ride. That being said though the real reason people install suspension on anything street or track is so they can improve the performance of their vehicle which results in basically two things:

A larger margin of safety and a larger margin of error. When the bike is compliant underneath you then you can concentrate more on body position and throttle management etc rather than trying to maneuver the bike around obstacles that you can now ride over or simply worrying about what the bike is going to do next. Proper suspension makes the bike predictable in all conditions. Additionally if the bike is working with you then when you do make a riding mistake you stand a much better chance of the bike correcting itself and keeping you on two wheels than if the bike is fighting you and protesting your inputs the entire time.

I know that top kit suspension pieces are not going to transform the 919 into a track weapon like they would any off the shelf GSXR or RR bike, but I certainly cannot dismiss the fact that the better the suspension is the better off the rider will be regardless what bike they are riding.

Nesty

The man speaks the truth. Bought my 9er in June 2008, found this site later that year, and have primarily bought my parts through LDH and followed the advice of LDH. For the 9er, his focus has always been PC, brake lines, rear sets 'cause I've started into a little track time, maybe some cans, and enjoying the 919 for what it was made to do (it is my daily ride).

Hate to sound like a testimonial, but the guy has given me more in product support than he can possibly received in profit. Feel free to look at my posts that are written primarily for other novices.

Pvster

meh, i commute every single day on my 9er, with every opportunity i have... so better feedback is a must for me... if i can get better feedback/response for under $400, i'm golden. i dont need no $900 rear shock ffs.... college kid... budget...

Sniper

In defence of LDH; He makes a living in part, selling Ohlins shocks. But he doesn't necessarily reccomend putting one on a 919. How do you get more unbiased than that?

I liked my Ohlins a lot because I could go over expansion joints and other irregularities and my ass didn't come flying off the seat. To me, suspention upgrade was worth it.

jay313

I always respect LDH's posts and his honest opinion. Never felt like he was giving the hard sell. Also appreciate davehirt's monologue, though I hope he understands if I don't follow his advice because I seriously don't have the budget.

I've sort of gathered this, but probably should ask it straight out: Will respringing the rear shock of the 919 be of any use? Not a revalving or rebuilding or anything else. Just a different (proper) spring?

mcromo44

If you have a 04 or later as came with lighter spring, no, but changing the fronts will. Assuming your weight in # has a 1 for a first digit. The fronts never changed, were always way too soft, and the early rears were like rocks - I think the early rears must have been selected on the basis of two up riding.

Pvster

mcromo, if that's the case, then they SUCK for 2up riding lol...

jay313

Weight 175-180 lbs. geared up. Ride is an 06.

catonsvilleguy

The way I see it, LDH and a couple other "experts" provide information. From what I've seen, the information is accurate and potentially useful. Some people don't want to make use of the information LDH provides and want him to keep it to himself. Yeah, he might make a buck here or there. More power to him.

I and apparently quite a few others appreciate the info LDH provides and I for one am grateful he's here providing it. I haven't spent any money yet on suspension on my 919 but I probably will. Having more information will help me make decisions that are best for me whether I buy big buck stuff or tweak the sag and live with OEM pieces.

They say ignorance is bliss??????????????

mcromo44

Yes, but believe it or not, my Penske with an # 1100 pound spring on it was worse with my wife on the back, and at the track, until I found out it had woefully inadequate low speed compression damping which has since been modified and now works like a charm.

mcromo44

I ALWAYS pay particular attention to people who sell stuff for a living, but are telling me not to spend my money. LDH is in the know, makes his living selling stuff or making it easier for his working associates to sell stuff, yet keeps those who might be inclined to "mis-spend", from doing so. The "mis-spend" refers to thinking that a maxed out factory front end and aftermarket shock will transform your 919 into a current generation 600 like chasssi. Which it won't, and can't. BUT reworked fronts and aftermarket rears do improve the 919, an particular advantage for intermediate riders wanting an improved track day platform out of their 919.

mcromo44

Perhaps the following will be of interest, noting it is from an earlier post from a related thread :

McRomo44 (SS) @ Dec 2009
My biggest beef with the 919 front end (mine is fully Race Tech valved/sprung/oiled) is the Stiction. I get as much as 15 mm of Stiction when doing classic Rider Sag checks. (With big Stiction numbers like 15 I don't not believe in using the +/-averaging method)I think the fork seals are too good and grab to some degree. The tubes are absolutely dry to the touch, unlike the tubes on our 600 and 750 that leave a barely detectable film you can more see than feel. I ended up creating a dynamic type Rider Sag check in order to get Rider Sag numbers I could trust. ( Hence my made up term “Dynamic Rider Sag”) Here is the method : 1 do a ballpark 35 mm Rider Sag or whatever number you are after. 2 get the front end off the ground, tire not touching and front end unloaded and full extended. 3 Add 5 mm to your target Rider Sag value. 4 take a piece of electrical tape and wrap it around the fork tube with the bottom of the tape at your Rider Sag + 5 mm value. 5 gently lower bike and get ready for a short slow ride close to home that has at least a 100 yard straight run. 6 putz along at 10-15 mph. 7 give it a touch of gas to unload the front end a bit and then declutch and stay off the front brake and just coast. 8 the coasting along will give enough input that the front end will find its true Rider Sag equilibrium point. 9 gently use the rear brake and come to a slow stop. See where the tape is in relation to the top of the fork seal, and now you know what your Rider Sag really is. Then go about changing your spring spacer length in pre 04 models or use your external ride height adjusters on your 04 and later models. Personally, I am using 95 mm spacers with my Race Tech 0.925 springs, 125 mm of oil height, and have the top 2 rings of ride height adjustment showing. The fork tubes are in the standard position in the clamps. Doing lots of Track Days miles on 2CTs. The rear is Penske with 1100 #/inch spring, running 11 mm of Free Sag, with shock lengthened 6 mm more than stock. I weigh 165 # before riding gear.

I think that much of the Stiction is due to the extremely effective fork seals.
You are also right about getting it where you like it, and if one doesn't know exactly where that is, as long as it’s good for you and your road riding it is OK. It really only becomes important if you are doing track time and playing with front and rear ride heights.
When you start playing with settings to that degree, you really want numbers front and back that you can be confident of. You need that for diagnostics as well as set up changes. And if you set up a 919 front end by the Classic Method, you do not know where it really is in terms of numbers you can talk to yourself or a chassis guy about.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wrist Twister’s Rob Tharalson @ Jan 2010
Air-powered Industrial Ball Vibrators to take out Stiction for Sag Setup.
I went to a local industrial supply and bought a small one, hose clamped it to one fork leg with a thin piece of rubber to protect the finish, and fired that puppy up. Immediately the forks dropped to a new position and could be moved either way with the force of one finger on the triple clamp. Suddenly the sag adjustment took all of three minutes (depending on where the adjuster / shim was), and the difference between drop to set position and rise to set position went from 5mm to less than 1mm. Of course it was still possible to set it wrong, but at least it was consistently wrong!

velodesign

ugh...my head hurts. im 220, 2007 919 with stock front and rear, someone just give me some part numbers to repring both and an averaged cost. no ohlins, no penske, just new springs. i bought the bike to ride around and enjoy, i dont need nor want 1100$ in new suspension, wouldn't utilize it.

or

can somone make a silly spreadsheet to "base" some of these questions too as a starting point for newbie suspensionsiers?

mntnceguy

Motorcycle Suspension by Traxxion Dynamics

Just call them, they've got everything you need in stock, rear springs are about $100, front fork springs/spacers with oil about $120-140, depending on if you need tools, which they also have. Great guys, will even rebuild your rear shock for ya

'Nuff said....

P.S.
For some reason the rear shock springs listing seems to be in the Fork related section of their catalougue...

davehirt

my previous post on the rear shock, unfortunately is not mine , but that of my tuner.
he has worked with race teams in europe and asia.
below is another installment of his musings, just to muddy the waters.
in a day or 2 i will post his ramblings on the front end, so as not to deluge you with information.
dave

Aftermarket shock manufacturers’ constraints:

Every shock out there available to purchase – waiting for you in a box – is basically a tool. It can do a job and in order for it to achieve its purpose and see us as happy bunnies, it must be calibrated so as to best arrive at this target. What tends to go awry within this scenario, whether it is an aftermarket shock, or indeed even a standard machine’s OEM suspension, is that it is commonly imagined that just turning the screws sees an amazing spectrum of change possible for the machine’s handling characteristics - all manner of problems being solved by just finding the magic sequence of adjuster positions. Quite logically really this is not the case at all.

We shan’t worry about discussing the OEM machine’s dilemma (although the moral is similar), instead let’s consider why your whiz-bang shock is not necessarily going to hit the nail on the head just as it comes from the wrapper.

Most quality shock makers will have isolated some of what is wrong (where the original designers had to compromise...) with your machine in its OEM guise and so will adopt a manner in which to cope with its particular movement style – think levers, weight; power and dynamic behaviour between the front and rear of your bike being manipulated; by way of using the internal components and the external spring(s) to suit their needs. Yet what is the best method? Does every shock company take the same approach in order to arrive at their goal?

Well, the best setting is self-evidently ever shifting. Our environments that we live in differ radically to each other around the globe. We the people, come in odd and odder dimensions and then have opinions on when and how we want to do stuff to the controls of our bikes; expecting and demanding with timing that make metronomes ponder suicide, the pseudo-improbable/impossible/implausible of our shock or fork. To top that off we have quite different views on how much of it all we believe we should be able to feel or know about by way of feedback(from the road surface). What and how much gets to our consciousness, as such.

The manufacturer of the shock has, because of the fact that there are other makers out there too, got to have their own design or way of doing things (patents and hubris). This means for the large part that no two brands have the same type or format of their components; the piston designs and the machine's leverage/link types differ; the sizes within the shock change and the adjuster mechanisms are unique to the brand in particular. This is not one of those "it's all good" relative or liberal areas whereby you have heaps of choice (this brand or that) and they are all good answers, there are right ways and wrong ways to plan movement restriction. Besides all of that, the manufacturers then approach their testing regimes in different ways to each other and have differing expectations for the results too!

What result should they come up with? Here is the dilemma, they needs must produce something to suit the most amount of people so as to find praise, popularity and therefore repeat custom from the kudos; but most importantly to remember is that what you pull from the box is often as not supposed to suit your OEM fork, after all they do not know whether you are altering that as well do they? Of course if your OEM fork is riddled with some problems of its own, whilst the two may balance together if the company has gotten it all correct (some even fail there by the way), this does not mean it is time to get your knee pucks out and make friends with every bend on your favourite “race track”. It may, but it also may not...

The target demographic for their shocks is likely to be the likes of the “road rider”, not as the marketing may appear to suggest the “top gun” racers whom live and breathe lap-times. As a consequence they will build them a certain way so as to best suit the most amount of “you” – familiar tone that, as it sounds like OEM all over again! Yet would you believe that many people still go out and attempt to race on these shocks?
So, the point I am attempting to demonstrate is that compromises are inevitably made in order that products suit the most amount of potential wallets.

The implications of this vary widely, largely due to the makers all having different methods for arriving with the product they put onto the market. I imagine that there are those of you out there that think they spend untold hours going around and around in circles on race circuits, or doing 10’s of thousands of kilometres from Itahari to Broome by way of New Orleans & Upplands-Väsby, so as to bring the best spring and valving combination to the final product. Ah and if only that were the case! It isn’t though, it is more like just a few hours. Some of the R&D departments will use all manner of in-house analytical machinery in order to work something out; whereas others will simply match a spring to a rebound curve and use generic compression strength across their range regardless of the bike’s make and model. Some will use simple shock dynamometers whilst others use dynamometers that attach to the entire rear end of the bike (major difference). However it is not even this simple, as there is a lot more to a rear shock absorber than simply a few shims and a spring! All of those different designs or arrangement of parts in order to constitute their brand’s distinguishing form/identity affect the way the product copes with your bike’s movement. Some of which are utterly hopeless, though I cannot/will not name those brands. Suffice it to mention that I only do 3 brands by and large; either the others fail the litmus, or they are just facsimiles (good or bad) of the brands already sold, or of course just bad design full stop. Interestingly enough, culture plays a part here; so geography can sometimes determine design trends! (just a mildly intriguing aside!)

Shocks that do arrive on the market can in many ways be quite similar to your computer’s operating system. The version first released is often far enough away from subsequent versions or updates that it means the difference between good and bad, enjoyment or pain. The manufacturers cannot be expected to recall them all and do them again; so by and large this is down to the support workers, either ‘we’ install the changes as and when they become available, or as is more often the case, work it out for ourselves and create our own versions of the brand as soon as possible after the bikes hit the market (even before they do in some cases). Strong curiosity is very important to the ‘single modifying geezer’ during the R&D phase, as is something to ‘weigh’ everything up against. One’s own individual formulating mechanism or universal system for comparison is absolutely essential to drawing a map of all the bikes and their traits, so as bare minimum to see the past and the present through the eyes of the designers. This system in turn must stand the test of time (tested and re-tested against itself over and over again) in order to be a proper useful theoretical tool-set; rather than just random numerological hypotheses! So, in short, this sort of work will in no way reward anyone that works from charts (as franchises have to promote by virtue of being what they are... LOL). You cannot just “microwave” this stuff... Indeed, a lot of the old fashioned approaches to how things are viewed now seem sad and vacuous, or plain monochrome and lacking in dimensional depth; simplistic and all-too-easily reaching for meaning where no actual logic follows... Of course we could now go on along this road of digression and bring politics and money or even and especially marketing with its oft syllogistic sophism along for the ride; but we won’t...!

So, I hope (and this is the summary by the way) that you can now see the implications for the choices that are made by individuals on an annual basis – whilst it is great to not have one’s choices stolen from them (China Mieville) – it is also very important to be better informed and not just partially so; the half in half out approach to things can do a lot of damage to comprehension!
So I suppose for this to be a proper summary I will have to include what should be blindingly obvious by now; but as people always say to me, I do have to speak more clearly – if you grey import your own shock, or if you buy from someone a shock straight from a box, well that is it & that’s all you can expect from it; it cannot by definition of the above points amount to anymore than that.

Does it matter more what something can do, or more how it appears to others?

Zenodamper - Suspension Engineering

mcromo44

Mr. Mike runs 0.85s in his stock front end with his stock late model shock.
I would listen to that, although I don't know his weight.
My guess is that putting 85s or 90s in your front end, and staying with the stock rear spring is going to be your ticket, especially if you are doing mostly solo riding. Front end springs and good oil should be well under $ 150 USA if you do the work yourself, and it is an easy do.

velodesign

.85 from traxxion?

honda ng gingsa

I'm really trying to learn a thing or two on the suspension discussion. The zenodamper diatribe seems to be important by everyones reactions but I can't make heads or tails of it...

Can someone translate to simpler terms?

zaq123

I would not listen to that if you are 220lbs.


Mr.Mike is probably under 160lbs, if not, he has wrong rate spring.

for 220lbs guy, you need .98 - 1 kg spring, traxxion, racetech, eibach etc, doesn't matter, all of them produced by one company - eibach

Rear stock spring is a junk but it's around what you need (on the light side of the scale)

I didn't read all of this thread but it looks like it has a lot of blah-blah, my "head is spinning" info




I don't care if you ride 919, r1, Harley or even a bicycle (yes, some of them have shocks) you need a suspension that is properly set up for your weight, riding conditions. Honda will not call you and say "Hey Joe, let us set up this bike just for you", they will make the same for everyone, lbs redesign guy and for you, lbs Mr.Mike.


There is one important characteristic of any bike's suspension called SAG.
That is where you need to stat. All these numbers for springs, valve shim stacks, fluid weights etc come from a chat/ a feaking matrix (no, not the movie one). It will be your starting point. After that, once you got it all installed and upgraded you need to set it up and fine tune.

I don't care if you are Dan Kyle, Joe suspension guy or Ohlins themselves, you can't just sell stuff to the guy and say "you are all set pal". No, you always need to set it up properly.
Therefore all of the above guys (maybe except Joe) will ask you this "WHAT IS YOU SAG NUMBERS?"
Those sag numbers is the only reason such a reputable company like Ohlins will ship their shock with 2 sets of springs, the one as per chat and the next one up.
Before doing any suspension upgrades, one needs to understand what is it he is trying to achieve and why.

sike

If a person really isn't that good of a rider, at least near the front of an intermediate trackday group, the width of possible suspension "set-up" is so wide that it really won't make all that much difference. Three examples of what can be done with skill to overcome suspension set-up:

At one of the local trackdays the lead instructor has an old piece of crap Honda 750 cruiser that looks dead. It is called the bike of shame, because he takes it out in the beginner group to shut people up regarding the bullshit equipment excuses. He passes folks on the outside to prove his point.

The Pridmore's frequently give two-up rides during their trackdays, and that clearly changes the weigth on the suspension. They smoke the majority of the riders while doing this.

I was lucky enough to be on the track with Doug Pollen at a Ducati Days when he grabbed one of the s2 Monsters off of the line of bikes. He left people for dead.

So, having suspension set-up for you is extremely valuable if you are pushing the bike or are WAY out of the weight range, way out. But, it shouldn't be used for an excuse to why you can't ride a bike fast, because skill can overcome a lot of issues. Personally, I think a good suspension set-up (for us mere mortals) is far more about confidence than anything else.

Also, in my opinion, front of the intermediate group is were the ability to notice differences starts, just barely...

mcromo44

Let's take a bit of step back here.

This is for a guy who just wants to road ride and not push it.
He does not "NEED" to have his bike perfectly spring and he's clearly indicated he does not want his chassis upgraded for track days.
Mr. Mike has done the right thing within the confines of minimum $ for best gain, he's reasonably balanced the front rate with the standard rear. That is astute and smart tweaking in my book.

Sniper

After I took the plunge and got an Ohlins for my 919. I didn't know how to adjust it, so I left it alone. Even "as is" the shock worked much better than the stocker. I did an NESBA Clinic/Track day up at Putnam. They have a suspention guy, actually, a 2 or 3 man team, that set up your bike for you. He dialed mine in for me. and there was a noticeable difference. I ride towards the front of the slow group. I'm not fast.

I took a friend with me that day. It was his first time. He was on a re-sprung Gen1 FZ1. (What a barge!) He was wheelieing out of corners and running wide and was generally fighting the bike. After the guy adjusted the suspention, he said it was a whole lot better.

So, If you are like me, and have good equipment, but don't know how to adjust it, Get to the track. Even lowly slugs like me ride better on well a well adjusted bike.

mcromo44

Agreed, and I think Sike is off a bit but only in terms of his comments about a riders skill level in terms of his ability to sense improvement/better in the chassis. I'm interemediate in the middlin to slow end (almost everyone else is on 600s) and I can assure you, I noticed the scary rear end yo-yoing cease once the rear was properly set up. I was hitting the snubber it was so bad, as in very little low speed compression damping

sike

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from suspension mods, but more focusing on confidence versus need.
Another example of "overcoming" issues is the fact that a large percentage of bike releases now have pro riders or retired pro riders. They have done this to quiet some of the press from talking about what they (the press) call a weakness or problem of the bike (it is hard to refer to something as a limiting factor when you are getting smoked by the same bike). And, some of those press folks were/are club level champions. The first big example was Ruben Xaus at the HPM release sliding it around folks on the outside while waving. The other good example was Hayden (Roger, I believe), smoking up the rear out of corner exits while passing the press folks on the outside.

So, the bike usually isn't the limiting factor, we are. But, better suspension can give more confidence, and thus more enjoyment.

catonsvilleguy

Telling someone they should buy new springs and telling them the spring rate doesn't really matter don't add up. I don't care what kind of new math you're smokin'.

If you are going to respring your bike, there is no reason on earth not to get springs appropriate for your weight.

If the spring rate don't matter to you, you don't need new springs.

mcromo44

There is another way to look at it.
Respringing both ends as matched to your weight.
Or, if in an effort to minimize expense but get some gain, simply respring the front to match the stock rear.
A bike that has good spring balance fore and aft but is softly sprung overall, is better than a bike with mismatched springing which is exactly what a 919 has, especially early ones.
This is what Mr. Mike did and it is yet another barometer of his savvy.